A few questions came up in ground school that had me stumped. Any insight
is appreciated.

Why do some approaches say Radar required when all the fixes can be
identified using other equipment required for the approach? For example,
VOR-DME-A at 3G3.

When a holding pattern is published in lieu of a PT, my understanding of
the AIM (5-4-9 (4)) is that you only have to perform the entry, and are not
required to do any laps around the pattern. What if the hold requires a
direct entry? In that case it seems that you can effectively skip the
holdind pattern, which does not make sense to me because a PT (or hold in
lieu of PT) is a required maneuver. Take a look at SDF10 @ DWU.

Why does the hold in lieu of a PT always say "1 min". Isn't a hold always 1
min? Why is this mentioned only for this type of hold, and not mentioned
for all other holds?

What exactly is a Fan Marker? See SDF10 @ DWU. How is this different from
an OM? The fan marker seems to have its own identifier code.


Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

In article >,
Andrew Sarangan > wrote:

> A few questions came up in ground school that had me stumped. Any insight
> is appreciated.
>
> Why do some approaches say Radar required when all the fixes can be
> identified using other equipment required for the approach? For example,
> VOR-DME-A at 3G3.

According to airnav.com, DUNDY, the only IAF, isn't charted on any
en-route charts, so there's no tie-in to the en-route airway system,
making radar vectors the only way to get to the IAF. At least that's my
guess.

> When a holding pattern is published in lieu of a PT, my understanding of
> the AIM (5-4-9 (4)) is that you only have to perform the entry, and are not
> required to do any laps around the pattern.

That's correct.

> What if the hold requires a
> direct entry? In that case it seems that you can effectively skip the
> holdind pattern, which does not make sense to me because a PT (or hold in
> lieu of PT) is a required maneuver. Take a look at SDF10 @ DWU.

The rule says that unless you are flying a published NoPT route or are
on radar vectors to the final approach course, you must fly the PT. It
doesn't always make sense, but that's the rule.
>
> Why does the hold in lieu of a PT always say "1 min". Isn't a hold always 1
> min? Why is this mentioned only for this type of hold, and not mentioned
> for all other holds?

Holds don't have to be 1-minute legs. If you have DME or GPS, it's
common to specify the leg length in terms of distance, not time. A good
example would be the GPS-9 t KIJD.

> What exactly is a Fan Marker? See SDF10 @ DWU. How is this different from
> an OM? The fan marker seems to have its own identifier code.

FM's are pretty rare these days. I believe they were originally used as
distance fixes along the old A-N airways. A FM has a wider radiation
pattern than a standard OM. My guess is that an OM isn't wide enough to
reach to the edges of the SDF course, so they use the wider FM instead.
My recollection is that they have the same carrier frequency and audio
keying frequency as the OM, so they light up the OM light on your panel.

A fan marker lights the white light. An OM lights the blue light.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> A few questions came up in ground school that had me stumped. Any insight
> is appreciated.
>
> Why do some approaches say Radar required when all the fixes can be
> identified using other equipment required for the approach? For example,
> VOR-DME-A at 3G3.
>
> When a holding pattern is published in lieu of a PT, my understanding of
> the AIM (5-4-9 (4)) is that you only have to perform the entry, and are not
> required to do any laps around the pattern. What if the hold requires a
> direct entry? In that case it seems that you can effectively skip the
> holdind pattern, which does not make sense to me because a PT (or hold in
> lieu of PT) is a required maneuver. Take a look at SDF10 @ DWU.
>
> Why does the hold in lieu of a PT always say "1 min". Isn't a hold always 1
> min? Why is this mentioned only for this type of hold, and not mentioned
> for all other holds?
>
> What exactly is a Fan Marker? See SDF10 @ DWU. How is this different from
> an OM? The fan marker seems to have its own identifier code.
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.usenet.com

Andrew Sarangan wrote
> What exactly is a Fan Marker? See SDF10 @ DWU. How is this different
> from an OM? The fan marker seems to have its own identifier code.

Ah yes...the SDF RW10 at DWU...my home field for 7 years.
Probably did the SDF approach at least one hundred times.
Positioning wise, the fan marker does not fit the usual
requirement for outer/middle/inner markers. At DWU, it
marks a step-down fix after that last radio tower where,
if received, one may descend to the lower FM minimums.
Andrew, you probably don't remember "bone" markers either?
:-)

Bob Moore

DUNDY is incorrectly charted. It is an IF, not an IAF. The FAA has made this
mistake on a lot of these abbreviated radar required IAPs.

Roy Smith wrote:

> In article >,
> Andrew Sarangan > wrote:
>
> > A few questions came up in ground school that had me stumped. Any insight
> > is appreciated.
> >
> > Why do some approaches say Radar required when all the fixes can be
> > identified using other equipment required for the approach? For example,
> > VOR-DME-A at 3G3.
>
> According to airnav.com, DUNDY, the only IAF, isn't charted on any
> en-route charts, so there's no tie-in to the en-route airway system,
> making radar vectors the only way to get to the IAF. At least that's my
> guess.
>
> > When a holding pattern is published in lieu of a PT, my understanding of
> > the AIM (5-4-9 (4)) is that you only have to perform the entry, and are not
> > required to do any laps around the pattern.
>
> That's correct.
>
> > What if the hold requires a
> > direct entry? In that case it seems that you can effectively skip the
> > holdind pattern, which does not make sense to me because a PT (or hold in
> > lieu of PT) is a required maneuver. Take a look at SDF10 @ DWU.
>
> The rule says that unless you are flying a published NoPT route or are
> on radar vectors to the final approach course, you must fly the PT. It
> doesn't always make sense, but that's the rule.
> >
> > Why does the hold in lieu of a PT always say "1 min". Isn't a hold always 1
> > min? Why is this mentioned only for this type of hold, and not mentioned
> > for all other holds?
>
> Holds don't have to be 1-minute legs. If you have DME or GPS, it's
> common to specify the leg length in terms of distance, not time. A good
> example would be the GPS-9 t KIJD.
>
> > What exactly is a Fan Marker? See SDF10 @ DWU. How is this different from
> > an OM? The fan marker seems to have its own identifier code.
>
> FM's are pretty rare these days. I believe they were originally used as
> distance fixes along the old A-N airways. A FM has a wider radiation
> pattern than a standard OM. My guess is that an OM isn't wide enough to
> reach to the edges of the SDF course, so they use the wider FM instead.
> My recollection is that they have the same carrier frequency and audio
> keying frequency as the OM, so they light up the OM light on your panel.

In article >, wrote:

> DUNDY is incorrectly charted. It is an IF, not an IAF. The FAA has made this
> mistake on a lot of these abbreviated radar required IAPs.

From the point of view of a pilot flying the procedure, is there any
practical difference?

So, you are saying that the FM activate the same light as the Inside
Marker. Is this written down anywhere? I could not find anything in the
AIM. Before I explain this to my ground school I want to be certain I
have the correct answer.



wrote in :

> A fan marker lights the white light. An OM lights the blue light.
>
> Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
>> A few questions came up in ground school that had me stumped. Any
>> insight is appreciated.
>>
>> Why do some approaches say Radar required when all the fixes can be
>> identified using other equipment required for the approach? For
>> example, VOR-DME-A at 3G3.
>>
>> When a holding pattern is published in lieu of a PT, my understanding
>> of the AIM (5-4-9 (4)) is that you only have to perform the entry,
>> and are not required to do any laps around the pattern. What if the
>> hold requires a direct entry? In that case it seems that you can
>> effectively skip the holdind pattern, which does not make sense to me
>> because a PT (or hold in lieu of PT) is a required maneuver. Take a
>> look at SDF10 @ DWU.
>>
>> Why does the hold in lieu of a PT always say "1 min". Isn't a hold
>> always 1 min? Why is this mentioned only for this type of hold, and
>> not mentioned for all other holds?
>>
>> What exactly is a Fan Marker? See SDF10 @ DWU. How is this different
>> from an OM? The fan marker seems to have its own identifier code.
>>
>> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> http://www.usenet.com
>


Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

AIM 1-1-9(f). All marker beacons, including fan markers, transmit on 75 Mhz.
The only difference is the audio modulation frequency which in turn
determines which light illuminates on the panel. Because of the relatively
high frequency, they are short range...thus the need for "locator (outer,
inner, middle) markers"...they enable the ADF equipped aircraft to locate
the marker beacon. It is easy to fly within reception range of an NDB and
miss the marker beacon entirely if you are not paying attention.

Some of the new whiz-bang ground traffic management systems involve voice
transmission on 75MHz because most planes have a marker beacon panel.
Sometime in the future, as you are taxiing in poor visibility, your marker
beacon receiver might say something like "On taxiway bravo, approaching
intersection bravo two."

Bob Gardner

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
. 145...
>A few questions came up in ground school that had me stumped. Any insight
> is appreciated.
>
> Why do some approaches say Radar required when all the fixes can be
> identified using other equipment required for the approach? For example,
> VOR-DME-A at 3G3.
>
> When a holding pattern is published in lieu of a PT, my understanding of
> the AIM (5-4-9 (4)) is that you only have to perform the entry, and are
> not
> required to do any laps around the pattern. What if the hold requires a
> direct entry? In that case it seems that you can effectively skip the
> holdind pattern, which does not make sense to me because a PT (or hold in
> lieu of PT) is a required maneuver. Take a look at SDF10 @ DWU.
>
> Why does the hold in lieu of a PT always say "1 min". Isn't a hold always
> 1
> min? Why is this mentioned only for this type of hold, and not mentioned
> for all other holds?
>
> What exactly is a Fan Marker? See SDF10 @ DWU. How is this different from
> an OM? The fan marker seems to have its own identifier code.
>
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.usenet.com

Roy Smith wrote:

> In article >, wrote:
>
> > DUNDY is incorrectly charted. It is an IF, not an IAF. The FAA has made this
> > mistake on a lot of these abbreviated radar required IAPs.
>
> From the point of view of a pilot flying the procedure, is there any
> practical difference?

ATC can clear you direct to an IAF but not to an IF. The protected airspace is more
limited for large course changes. These types of procedures are designed for 20-30
intercepts from vectors to within the intermediate segment.

Inside marker? I think you mean the inner marker. If you want an
authoritative source try the new FAA instrument flying handbook.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> So, you are saying that the FM activate the same light as the Inside
> Marker. Is this written down anywhere? I could not find anything in the
> AIM. Before I explain this to my ground school I want to be certain I
> have the correct answer.
>
> wrote in :
>
> > A fan marker lights the white light. An OM lights the blue light.
> >
> > Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> >
> >> A few questions came up in ground school that had me stumped. Any
> >> insight is appreciated.
> >>
> >> Why do some approaches say Radar required when all the fixes can be
> >> identified using other equipment required for the approach? For
> >> example, VOR-DME-A at 3G3.
> >>
> >> When a holding pattern is published in lieu of a PT, my understanding
> >> of the AIM (5-4-9 (4)) is that you only have to perform the entry,
> >> and are not required to do any laps around the pattern. What if the
> >> hold requires a direct entry? In that case it seems that you can
> >> effectively skip the holdind pattern, which does not make sense to me
> >> because a PT (or hold in lieu of PT) is a required maneuver. Take a
> >> look at SDF10 @ DWU.
> >>
> >> Why does the hold in lieu of a PT always say "1 min". Isn't a hold
> >> always 1 min? Why is this mentioned only for this type of hold, and
> >> not mentioned for all other holds?
> >>
> >> What exactly is a Fan Marker? See SDF10 @ DWU. How is this different
> >> from an OM? The fan marker seems to have its own identifier code.
> >>
> >> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> http://www.usenet.com
> >
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.usenet.com